Tuesday, October 23, 2007

Reveal....ing something we should already know!

So, last week I finished reading the latest offering from those guys (and gals) over at Willow Creek. A snazy, shiny, skinny (I liked that bit) book called 'Reveal.' Supposedly a book which analyses data collected by the church over a period of 4 years and getting a few million data points, the cover claims that;

"The Answer Will Transform Your Church"
"The brutal truth about spiritual growth......suprising reaserch that rocked Willow"

(Emphasies mine)

The thing is, all it really did was highlight what we should all already know. For instance, they 'discovered' that spiritual growth doesn't depend on church participation but Closeness to Christ. My alarm was at their alarm!!!

"Hold on?!?!" I'm thinking, "How exactly did you expect to measure spiritual growth?" The answer smacked of the obvious, "The closer people were to Chrsit the more spiritually mature they were." Well, um, durh!

Secondly they were alarmed that as closeness to Christ increased so did spiritual practices such as tithing, Bible reading, prayer and witness....... and the shocking truth lies where?

I think it smacks of the comsumer driven chruch we seem to be creating. Where we expect attendance to be the yard stick and are suprised when Jesus shows up in the process.

Check out the book, hopefully it'll just confirm what you already knew, if not then that's what's shocking.
Posted by Sammy Davies Jr. at 11:58:17 | Permanent Link | Comments (14) |
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1 - I read the book to and did find it a bit obvious. However, it was helpful to be reminded of the simple. In particular it reminded me of how important the first 6 months of a Christians new life is, and how mature Christians need to supplement their Christian growth with things outside of a Sunday service.
But yes, a little bit obvious - I'm just glad they didn't spend millions on it ....D'oh! (Comment this)

Written by: Jonathan Thomas at 2007/10/23 - 15:48:49
2 - Well I for one am glad that Willow Creek have made these discoveries. Why not pray for them to grow and apply these truths to their ministry? So often reformed evangelicals appear to have nothing but a sneering attitude towards charismatics (I don't know much about Willow Creek, I'm assuming a bit here). Yeh there is a lot that maybe we are uneasy with and would prefer they put their emphases elsewhere but that doesn't mean we should scoff.

I also feel that Closeness to Christ is what is overwhelmingly lacking in Wales today. Someone asked me recently what I judged that on, how I take a spiritual temperature of the country. Well it's easy really isn't it? How often do we meet Christians who are really going on with the Lord and He is their everything? I go months between meeting them.

So why not some articles on Closeness ot Christ? That is the crying need of our day. Psalm 12:1 "Help, LORD, for the godly are no more; the faithful have vanished from among men." (Comment this)

Written by: Gareth James at 2007/10/23 - 18:30:56
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3 - The question that springs to my mind is this: how do you quantify closeness to Christ? It's not just a question of their means of research, but if we're ever going to do any sort of spiritual 'check-up' then how do we determine how close we are to Christ? (Comment this)

Written by: Jonny Raine at 2007/10/23 - 20:01:34
4 - I told the church a few weeks back (whilst preaching on Colossians 3:16) that hearing the Word read and preached together was more important, and more significant, than their personal Bible reading.

One of the deacons said to me "that was what pastor X emphasised when the church started." (By the way there was no "pastor X" but it would have been pretty impressive if that was his name, and he would have looked like Samuel L. Jackson no doubt). (Comment this)

Written by: Martin Downes at 2007/10/24 - 11:00:19
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5 - Actually wasn't critising the church, i love a most of the stuff they put out, i'm an annual attendee at their leadership conference. Also not sure they are charismatic Gareth, not sure where that comes from, but I'm charismatic (of sorts) anyway so wouldn't have mattered.

How does one measure closeness to Christ? Very good question.

Martin, their research suggested that for newer Christians, you'd be right. But for 'closer-to-christ' brother and sisters, self feeding is a lot more important/effective. How does that strike you? (Comment this)

Written by: Sammy Davies Jr. at 2007/10/24 - 11:42:55
6 - Sammy I guess that being gathered together as God's people we are all under the authority of God's Word, and we are responsible to apply it together. I would say that good preaching will take account of different levels of maturity and Christian experience too.

This (the gathered church submitting together and feeding upon the Word) is the context for Christian maturity, which in Colossians 3:12ff is highly relational: humility, bearing with one another, kindness, forgivenes. How do you measure and quantify this kind of maturity? (I haven't seen the book and so I don't really know how they evaluated these things). (Comment this)

Written by: Martin Downes at 2007/10/24 - 16:29:56
7 - Jonny - I guess I would quantify (although that word sounds far too much like market research to me!) closeness to Christ in a person just by how much love he/she evidently has for the Lord. Have you ever met people who are just full of joy, care for others, kindness, gentleness (and not in the way that old ladies are 'gentle' but real godly gentleness), holiness, humility, etc. We're so confused over this because it's so rare (in the UK/West even?).

Sammy - apologies then for my assumptions!
Martin - yeh of course listening to preaching is imperitive (heard a great seminar on that from Mr Olyott in extratime this year) but we're talking about actual closeness to Christ here, walking with Him, putting what we hear in sermons into practise 24/7 aren't we? (Comment this)

Written by: Gareth James at 2007/10/24 - 23:35:54
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8 - Martin, I think you come close to a good point (I hope this is what you meant). That preaching, good preaching, should be just as useful to the more mature as to the young. If it's not, then it's the fault of the preacher rather than the practice of preaching. Is that what you meant? If so I'd tend to agree, but as a more mature Christian, is one good sermon a week enough? It might make a mighty difference in someone new to the faith, but if we really want to grow is that all we should rely on? Of course you'll agree the answer is no, spiritual disciplines such as regular prayer, personal scripture study, reading Christian books, listening to other preachers etc. must be part of a more adult Christian life. But none of this is of course to say that the Sunday sermon should loose it's value, faith comes from hearing the word preached, and we should continue in the way that we enter into it.

As for quantifying, their measure of closeness to Christ was based upon self-description. Their measure of spiritual maturity was based on the two commandments "Love God, love your neighbour as yourself." (Comment this)

Written by: Sammy Davies Jr. at 2007/10/25 - 13:10:46
9 - For the church the primary means of growth will be the hearing of the preached Word. We are to hear it together and apply it together. Our application will be personal and corporate. But that of course doesn't mean in practice that this is taken as seriously as it should be, either by the preacher or the congregation. Using catechisms is good too, which you can also do on a Sunday.

An appetite for reading, personal prayer, etc. is always a good sign of health. (Comment this)

Written by: Martin Downes at 2007/10/26 - 10:28:04
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10 - Sorry Martin, but the book says that that ISN'T the primary means of growth for more mature Christians. Your beef however should not be with the messenger... (Comment this)

Written by: Sammy Davies Jr. at 2007/10/26 - 12:02:39
11 - I'm not surprised! I noticed that they are trying to deal with the problem in individualistic terms too. (Comment this)

Written by: Martin Downes at 2007/10/26 - 12:53:34
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12 - So my question is now this, "Are we failing in our preaching with regards the more seasoned Christian?"

Is the answer more emphasis on other things for them to do or should it be readdressing how and what we preach to be more beneficial to all in their walk?

Do we actually think that in our Churches this is a problem even? (Comment this)

Written by: Sammy Davies Jr. at 2007/10/26 - 12:56:44
13 - Depends on how we are defining maturity to begin with. What is the goal that we are aiming for? My starting point would be something like "motion toward Christ-likeness" (to borrow a phrase). And this would involve applied-knowledge. Obviously this takes the form of grasping Biblical truth again and again and walking in the light of it. The problem will either be in the pulpit or the pew if people start thinking they have moved on in their maturity beyond the week by week preaching that they get. (Comment this)

Written by: Martin Downes at 2007/10/26 - 13:04:57
14 - Thanks for your blog. Saw it on Google and have to agree with your statement (Comment this)

Written by: Geobug at 2007/11/22 - 23:39:55
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